Curse

Acan Vishnu · Jun 30, 2005, 04:09 PM // 16:09

One thing that I would like to say is that I've seen a W/E that was a Earth Magic/Hammer knockdown build that was just great. Monsters could crowd around him all they wanted, but they couldn't do a whole lot to him. It wasn't the greatest when we hit against ranged attackers, but it still was darn good.

Myodato · Jun 30, 2005, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Why is everybody obsessed with having to attack to pull ? The simplest and best form of pulling is simply to walk a single warrior just inside aggro range of a group, then move back until he the rest of his party is just outside his aggro circle.

All aggro will drop on him, with very little chance of moving onto other party members (as long as they stay far enough back). Once he's being hit, which isn't a problem with even one good monk in the party, then everybody else starts laying down the hurt.

smitty-gw · Jun 30, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myodato

Why is everybody obsessed with having to attack to pull ? The simplest and best form of pulling is simply to walk a single warrior just inside aggro range of a group, then move back until he the rest of his party is just outside his aggro circle.

All aggro will drop on him, with very little chance of moving onto other party members (as long as they stay far enough back). Once he's being hit, which isn't a problem with even one good monk in the party, then everybody else starts laying down the hurt.

No reason really, just that the longbow attack will sometimes draw less mob groups at a time than the walking aggro bubble of the Warrior.

Additionally, multiple Warriors do not undermine the pull concept if the secondary Warriors all follow the primary Warrior's aggro and called targets when surrounded.

Pulling and calling target procedures are vital parts for success in GW combat.

Great thread btw. GW combat tactics 101.

womble · Jun 30, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

2. The entire team takes out the opposing team's warriors.

I'd say the entire team hits all the warriors with AEDOT and then nukes/shoots the snot out of the healers/interrupters. Ignore the ranged damage til last, but take out the support classes or the tanks will take forever to kill. Stacked storms on the 'cluster' will have half-killed most mobs by the time you gank their healers/the storm runs out.

One other wrinkle with pulling is that it's sometimes, if there are two mobs of mobs close together, it's worth having the core of the party stand another half-aggro-diameter further back and having the pulling tank run back that bit extra so that accidental forward rushes (to take out hanging-back support mobs f'r'ex) don't trigger the nearbys.

Epinephrine · Jun 30, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santosh

I play a war/mo. I was in a Riverside mission ...

Sounds like you did the right thing. My complaint about not dragging them together is more for the guys in front - dragging a guy 50 feet to the AoE is silly (except for special situations), but so is fighting 2 guys 4 feet outside of a firestrom/well of blood/mark of pain. When two warriors are tanking out front and standing more than a few feet apart it gets hard to catch everyone with the AoEs - in those cases dragging them so you are beside each other makes sense, and works wonderfully.

Acan Vishnu · Jun 30, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

When two warriors are tanking out front and standing more than a few feet apart it gets hard to catch everyone with the AoEs - in those cases dragging them so you are beside each other makes sense, and works wonderfully.

I agree, but I still wouldn't do it in your average PUG. There is the chance that when the warrior moves that the monsters will redirect their attacks to something... squishier, and if your team isn't ready for that -- hasn't positioned themselves properly -- then it can lead to some nasty situations.

Grouping monsters properly is a group effort. If you have people distracting the monsters, tempting them away with their soft and squishy bodies, then I don't care how good your warrior is. He's going to have a hell of a time keeping them grouped.

Old Dood · Jun 30, 2005, 04:36 PM // 16:36

When I am tanking and the mob tries to run by me I throw Cyclone Axe at them and "Ding" them. Sometimes they stop and fight me. Sometimes they keep on truckin....

Dazzler · Jun 30, 2005, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Yes and VERY IMPORTANT: Once the W draws the aggro and the fighting starts, DO NOT MOVE! Nothing annoys me as an Ele more than the person with aggro running around. Great! My 4sec/25mana/exhaustion spell is now wasted for nothing.

Same thing with you squishies. If you somehow draw the aggro do one of 2 things: STAND THERE and let the ele's drop some aoe on you, or if you MUST run, run to the warriors and then stand still. I've seen battles where the monk has drawn the aggro and then proceeds to RUN RUN RUN RUN in random directions. The ele's can't drop any spells to take out the mobs. The ranger arrows keep missing b/c the monk is moving in random directions and the mob is following. The warriors cannot catch the mobs. In short, the fight takes FOREVER because no one can hit the mobs chasing the monk.

The worst thing you can do is run around once the fighting starts. If the rest of your team cannot predict and depend upon your location and the mob location, they cannot effectively put their skills to good use.

Another bad one I've seen is the warrior runs out and aggro's the mob while we all stay back. Then the warrior (without communicating to the rest of the party before hand), leads it back towards the party to get it away from other nearby mobs.

The problem is that the party did not know this was gonna happen so they are busy casting prep spells (like arcane echo or whatever) and get caught inside the aggro radius when the W comes back with the group of angry monsters. You can guess what happens next.

Uzul · Jun 30, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

okay - i was up to post this yesterday night but i was too tired to articulate myself.

great thread here - everyone who wants to tank should read this:
but there is one part missing until now: the what-if for the squishee who get's flanked by patrol or maybe one monster glitches away and goes for the others. it is very simple to draw it's aggro back on the tank - just needs a little practice in running around the tank so that the monster gets stuck - once it's lost the direct possibility to attack you it is most likey to attack whatever it can reach - which would be the tank.

i hope my gibberish english can be understood - i just got fraps so maybe i am able to make a video of that tonight.

GW Monkey · Jun 30, 2005, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Note in advance: I'm basically saying "what Eppy said!" and this is only specific to PvE since aggressive scripted monsters don't exist in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creston

Hey all,

I'm playing a W/Mo right now, and am attempting to learn the fine art of tanking. I can draw aggro to myself when there's not too many monsters running at us, but when it reaches five or six, there's always a few that get by me.

Hey there. Hmm, that should not happen. If your teammates understand how the aggro circle works, they will be outside it while you're "fetching" these monsters, and as a result they won't know your teammates even exist. Once, and only once, you have all the agressive mobs targeting you and trying to stomp you into the ground and you stop moving, should your teammates move into range and engage. This is tanking. Any other description is a bastardization of terms. Don't get distracted by the bow thing. Who cares? It has nothing to to with getting a monster's attention any differently than just moving into it's aggro range. No bow shoots beyond aggro, and I'm pretty sure that's by intent. ;P

Quote:

Let the ranger draw aggro.

I personally prefer a monk as the tank. With a Mo/E prot monk tanking and a healing monk supporting, you can let the "monktank" stand in front of anything the game has to offer for a good 20 seconds and barely get scratched. Describing how is unnecessary; I'm sure everyone knows what casts are available. But it doesn't matter, any class can be the tank. There should only be one tank, though.

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Once monsters start running up to me, I try to bump into them as much as possible. If I'm by myself, however, I can't block them completely, and usually a few will always go by me and attack the monk or the other squishies.

This is a good idea, but it doesn't work. They'll go where they want to, and if you move around you can lose the latched-on aggro you already have. If your teammates moved up too soon, it's their fault - not yours. Once you have stationary aggro it's hard to switch it off. Movement is the only way, and we don't want you moving at all and teammates moving until you've got it all wrapped up in a cluster ripe for AoE destruction.

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In short, I'm trying to find some way to get ALL the monsters to come tank me, rather than gank the squishies.

You cannot. They have target priorities just like you do. If there's a target in thier aggro circle they want dead, they're going for it. This is why Eles should really watch the short-range spells; on the edge of detection they will happily take the abuse of a meteor storm while locked on to the stationary tank (and how nice that is, non-moving targets for slow casts.) but those half-range spells can get you into trouble.

Quote:

There's gotta be an easier way to draw that aggro all to myself? Sometimes a party member will attack before monsters are locked on to me, which is what causes it, but even if the party just stands there, the mobs will aggro the monk.

In that case, zone to town and kick him from your team. No need for drama, just zone and kick. Grab a replacement that listens. If the monsters can only see one person, then they all engage that one person. They won't "lock" to you unless you don't move and unless there's nobody else in sight. (sight being the aggro circle). It's really this simple. If they can see a squishy, they will rightfully want to squish the squishy.

Quote:

Am I doing something wrong? Need tips from fellow warriors.

Tips from Warriors? Well. =^) Kidding aside, it has nothing to do with class. Anyone can tank, to a certain extent, with the proper buffs. A Mes tank isn't anywhere near as versatile as a other "tanks" but in a pinch it's fine. What's important is the tank's aggro circle and who's in it. It's that big white highlight your teammates are ignoring and making your job harder. Your best tactic is to explain these concepts to them, or better yet demonstrate them on weak mobs... portal back to ascalon and play with the gargoyles if you'd like.

I'm definitely no expert, but I guess I'll put together a "Aggro Circles and Tanking for Dummies" guide. With pictures. So many people do not understand it, and it's really basic stuff.

Good hunting.

The Destroyer · Jun 30, 2005, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW Monkey

Note in advance: I'm basically saying "what Eppy said!" and this is only specific to PvE since aggressive scripted monsters don't exist in PvP.

Hey there. Hmm, that should not happen. If your teammates understand how the aggro circle works, they will be outside it while you're "fetching" these monsters, and as a result they won't know your teammates even exist. Once, and only once, you have all the agressive mobs targeting you and trying to stomp you into the ground and you stop moving, should your teammates move into range and engage. This is tanking. Any other description is a bastardization of terms. Don't get distracted by the bow thing. Who cares? It has nothing to to with getting a monster's attention any differently than just moving into it's aggro range. No bow shoots beyond aggro, and I'm pretty sure that's by intent. ;P

Good hunting.

Obviously youve never even picked up a long bow. They do infact shoot past your aggro bubble. This allows the tank to stand still and draw the single targeted group to them instead of running and possibly aggroing 2+ groups. Casters make horrible tanks even monks unless they too use a LONG BOW to draw aggro. The only difference here is warrior'r are built to take damage they can stand a far longer time taking all the hits while the casters prep and slowly move in to range for the kill.

Rothgar · Jun 30, 2005, 07:58 PM // 19:58

There is nothing better then a warrior for tanking. Period.

Yes, other classes can tank but they'll never do it better then a warrior.

Why do you ask? Because anything another class uses is going to be an enchantment, a limited duration spell, or a stance. All of these things either run out, can be removed, or can be knocked out of.

You can never remove a warrior from his armor and shield. Now add in the extra enchantments, spells and stances that a warrior can also use, and you have a winner hands down.

NastyNYC · Jun 30, 2005, 08:08 PM // 20:08

lol i can't help but laugh everytime you say "squishie"

The Destroyer · Jun 30, 2005, 08:13 PM // 20:13

I agree with Rothgar! This ones for Nasty SQUISHIES should stay back and kill things like they are designed to do. Tanking and getting SQUISHED is the cause of a lot of monk frustration and party wipes. SQUISHIES STAY BACK!

GW Monkey · Jun 30, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Destroyer

Obviously youve never even picked up a long bow. They do infact shoot past your aggro bubble. This allows the tank to stand still and draw the single targeted group to them instead of running and possibly aggroing 2+ groups. Casters make horrible tanks even monks unless they too use a LONG BOW to draw aggro. The only difference here is warrior'r are built to take damage they can stand a far longer time taking all the hits while the casters prep and slowly move in to range for the kill.

Gah I don't want to argue with you. I've studied this. No, it doesn't. O.K. you are splitting hairs because you can't find anything to fault in the post and feel the need to be confrontational; technically you can hit your target w/o him auto-aggro'ing because of proximity. It will hit him on the outside edge of the aggro circle, but it's only by a couple steps. It truly doesn't matter. That same R could just as easily fire off a 75% evasion stance, run up and smack him, /wave, run back behind the stationary warrior. The same end result occurs only now there are two targets in the monster's aggro circle. Still, if your R is accutely aware of his aggro circle he'll only bring back what he wants. (assuming he knows which mobs are linked.) Someone who runs the risk of aggro'ing more than what he intends should not be the combat initiator, clearly.

Well, whatever. Styles do differ. re: warrior tanks, that's only assuming your monks and casters are not protecting the tank. Besides "a far longer time" is another way of saying "didn't bring enough firepower". Poor planning always manifests itself via risky, drawn out encounters. For building a highspeed PvE killing machine I usually will not take a W or R. (2 Mo / 4 E / 1 Me or N, 1 float, all with various secondaries). This assumes well-trained teammates with many hours playing together, naturally. One slight mistake and a total wipeout is possible. It's not a PUG-friendly setup. Done right, no one ever dies even 3+ hours into cleaning house in the underworld. Give it a try.

The Destroyer · Jun 30, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Ok Monkey you argued my point for me. Some mobs are packed so tight the ONLY way to aggro one mob is to use a long bows reach attack 1 monster and aggro the mob he is linked to. If a ranger uses driders defens etc etc and runs into a group of say 4 mobs not linked but so close together you cant bring back only what you watn then you just wiped the party congrats. While if you use the long bow to stay out of aggro range you get the one mob you pulled not all 4. 1 mob comes to warriors location and dies 3 left just outta aggro range, snipe one monster in next mob, 2 mobs still outta aggro range, get the picture?

Lasher Dragon · Jul 01, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW Monkey

Gah I don't want to argue with you. I've studied this. No, it doesn't. O.K. you are splitting hairs because you can't find anything to fault in the post and feel the need to be confrontational; technically you can hit your target w/o him auto-aggro'ing because of proximity. It will hit him on the outside edge of the aggro circle, but it's only by a couple steps.

You obviously have not "studied this". Quit talking like you know what you are talking about, go out, find any crappy old longbow, and test it. It will hit at nearly double aggro range, more than that if you have higher ground.

GW Monkey · Jul 01, 2005, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Destroyer

Ok Monkey you argued my point for me. Some mobs are packed so tight the ONLY way to aggro one mob is to use a long bows reach attack 1 monster and aggro the mob he is linked to. If a ranger uses driders defens etc etc and runs into a group of say 4 mobs not linked but so close together you cant bring back only what you watn then you just wiped the party congrats. While if you use the long bow to stay out of aggro range you get the one mob you pulled not all 4. 1 mob comes to warriors location and dies 3 left just outta aggro range, snipe one monster in next mob, 2 mobs still outta aggro range, get the picture?

Ah. I understand. Yes, of course. I would instead wait until they spread out or armour up the tank so he can stand there with 12 on him. More efficient to kill them all at once anyway. But yes, if you are trying to pull apart crossing patrols, especially large dangerous ones like bond/beserker sets in fissure that love to run past melee and waste the casters... the bow pull makes it less of a chance of getting more than you want. Do you have an example of where you could find mobs so tightly packed that don't patrol where this would be the only way to do it? I have not found such mob setups anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

You obviously have not "studied this". Quit talking like you know what you are talking about, go out, find any crappy old longbow, and test it. It will hit at nearly double aggro range, more than that if you have higher ground.

You're flamebaiting me. Don't be a jerk. Someone who might think you have an idea what you are talking about might read this. You're so full of feces but you are entertaining. Nearly double!

The selected target displays the range of longbows/flatbows on level terrain. You can pull a sort of "distance cheat" like you can with Rebirths, where once it goes off you can backpedal and be a bit farther back when the shot lands and initiates aggro. This definitely helps in selective pulls like Destroyer is illustrating.

DrSLUGFly · Jul 01, 2005, 12:21 PM // 12:21

I have a question about aggro pulling.

I realize that not being a ranger seriously reduces the amount of dmg available to you when using a bow, but does it affect range? I use a bow on my ele/mo to pull, but I can't be sure if I'm getting as much reach as a ranger.

Numa Pompilius · Jul 01, 2005, 12:40 PM // 12:40

[QUOTE=GW Monkey]Nearly double!
Yes it is. I don't know what your image is supposed to prove, but the distance you've indicated is for a short bow or for a spell; flatbows have significantly longer range - I know because I use one to pull all the time.